A Conversation with Dr Ong Kian Ming
Hello readers! Recently, I had the pleasure of interviewing a very intelligent and academically-acclaimed politician by the name of YB Dr…
Hello readers! Recently, I had the pleasure of interviewing a very intelligent and academically-acclaimed politician by the name of YB Dr Ong Kian Ming. For those who might not be familiar with his background, he’s the current MP of Bangi as well as Malaysia’s former Deputy Minister of International Trade and Industry.
From my experience working with him in a prior event, I could tell that he definitely had both intriguing and informative insights that we Malaysians will be interested in. I hope this interview satisfies and reignites some of your curiosities, and that it gives you more hope in both the future of our economy and country.
Note: this interview is edited for brevity and all of the interviewee’s opinions are entirely his own.
RUBY: One thing you are known for is your intellect as well as your academic credibility. After completing an Economics degree in LSE as well as a masters in Cambridge for Economics, what made you choose to pursue a PhD in political science at Duke University? Why political science?
DR OKM: Very good question. I would say that when I was still an undergraduate at LSE, my initial dream was to go to the U.S. to pursue a degree in Economics in the University of Chicago. However, after starting my masters at Cambridge, I realised that a degree in Economics at a PhD level would be very technical and very quantitative, and being able to translate that to the real world, especially on the policy side in Malaysia, may have been challenging.
So after I worked for a while, and explored different career and academic options, I decided to try and broaden my reach, and to look into issues that have to do with the political systems that we have seen both around the world and in Malaysia. That’s why I applied for, and was successfully admitted in the PhD program in political science at Duke University. Also in the U.S., but yeah not Chicago, Illinois.
To add a bit more to that, I think that that has actually helped me a lot in my career as a politician, in a sense that I know enough about economics to have a discussion with officials from Bank Negara, from the investment community and from think-tanks; and at the same time, I also know enough about political science to talk about restructuring and reforming the political system, the electoral system, in Malaysia. So I think the combination of economics and politics gives me quite a good grasp of a broad range of issues in Malaysia. Also, it allows me to be able to learn from multiple examples around the world and try to apply it in a Malaysian context.
RUBY: Why did you choose to join DAP and not other political parties like MCA or PKR, when for example, MCA was a component of the government during the time you chose to join politics?
DR OKM: Another very good question, and I think some of your readers may not know this, but I used to work for a couple of political think-tanks that was affiliated to parties in the then Barisan Nasional government, namely INSAP (aka the Institute of Strategic Analysis & Policy Research), that is still affiliated with MCA, and also SEDAR Institute, which was and still is affiliated with Gerakan.
I had interesting times there in terms of trying to carve out my own area of interest in the public policy space, and got involved in different projects with academia, but what I found was that both of these parties were not very interested in the policy-side of things. I think that is a systemic issue that many political parties in Malaysia face. So when I came back in 2010 after completing my PhD in the U.S., I was at the time very sure I wanted to join DAP, because there was an influx of young, idealistic, intelligent, and also more public policy oriented people that were coming into positions of leadership in the party. People like Tony Pua, Hannah Yeoh, Liew Chin Tong, Teo Nie Ching, and then later people who came on in the same elections as when I got elected in 2013, would be people like Yeo Bee Yin, Rajiv in Bukit Gasing at a state level, and Wong Shu Qi in Johor. So there was a growing momentum I felt, and I think DAP is still the most public policy oriented political party in Malaysia, and I think that’s part and parcel of a very strong base which the party is continuing to build on.
RUBY: For anyone who is interested in studying political science or perhaps even running in the electoral race in the future, do you have any advice for them?
DR OKM: My first remark is on studying social sciences in general. What do I mean by social science? Social sciences would include subjects such as economics, political science and even sociology. I think these are very good programs and courses for you to learn about how human behaviour works in a structured way.
What I mean by that is whenever you study these different fields, you are learning about how humans interact with one another in different systems, whether it’s certain economic systems, social systems or political systems. There are a lot of tools, insights and theories that you can pick up from learning about these kinds of interactions. There would be some quantitative tools that I think are much more important these days compared to before, which you need to pick up in any of the social sciences. Obviously when you study economics, you need to learn more quantitative tools. There are also qualitative tools and research methodology components that you need to pick up in any of these social sciences. I think the important thing for your readers to know is that all these tools and theories are a means to an end. A means to try to understand the world around us better and try to find ways to improve it. So that’s my answer to the first part of the question.
My answer to the second part of the question is that you don’t need to study social science to play an important role, or play some role in the political landscape in Malaysia. It would help if you had some of those tools so you can better understand public policy in this country, what is right about it, what is wrong about it, how to improve it.. But I think it’s much more important for you to have other kinds of qualities and characteristics. For example, I think intellectual curiosity is probably the most important thing that you need when you want to try to serve in the public sphere. You need to want to learn and understand about different areas of politics and society so that you can try to improve things and understand how people are feeling and suffering and experiencing different kinds of challenges. Also, I think you need to be quite creative in this day and age as you need to be able to find interesting solutions. They may not be very big solutions at a national level, when you’re starting out you may want to think about smaller solutions that you want to implement, maybe in your community, school or in your neighbourhood. Start small and then go from there.
The last important point that I want to make is that if you do want to enter into the political sphere or the public sphere, it’s always good to have good mentors. Look for good mentors that you can learn from and that you can try to emulate and go on from there.
RUBY: Apart from your academic credentials, you are also a member of Malaysia’s Special Select Committee on Finance and Economy. Do you have any predictions on how the Malaysian economy will advance in five years?
DR OKM: The Special Select Committee on Finance and Economy just met in Parliament last week, and we received briefings from Bank Negara as well as the Ministry of Finance on some of the very serious economic challenges the country is facing, mainly inflation as well as some of the pressures on government spending and also the fiscal position as all prices are increasing, but we still have the petrol subsidy which keeps the prices at the pump stable at RM2.05 for RON 95.
So all of this is part and parcel of the short-term economic challenges that not just Malaysia but also many countries around the world are facing as a result of the coming-out and recovery from the pandemic, inflation is running at an all-time high, looking at the trends, over the last 20 years. You still continue to see some supply-chain shocks. So these are short-term challenges that we have to deal with, hopefully on a bipartisan basis, but moving on, since your questions are on my thoughts on the trajectory of the Malaysian economy in the next five years, I’m actually quite bullish.
One of the main reasons is because I think Malaysia and Southeast Asia will be big beneficiaries from the tensions arising between the United States and China. What we have seen, and what we will continue to see, is an inflow of foreign direct investment, capital, of even people, coming into Southeast Asia to invest in the region, to grow their businesses here to increase the footprint of the global supply chain, or the global value chain, in Southeast Asia. Malaysia will definitely be a beneficiary, especially in areas such as the ENE sector that Malaysia is very well-known for, and we are already part and parcel of the global supply chain in this area. I’m quite confident we can continue to grow there, but I think we need to have better policy alignment, whether it’s in the area of foreign labour, human capital. This brain drain issue that you’re going to ask me questions on later, we need to have better policy alignment and direction on the part of the government so that we can take full advantage of the incoming FDI inflows that will definitely be coming into the region in the next 5 to 10 years.
RUBY: Actually, some of your answers in the previous question link to my next question. Are there any areas you think our economy should focus on as we accelerate our progress moving towards the fourth industrial revolution? You mentioned human capital just now, do you think that human capital is what the government should invest in, or that our economy should focus on?
DR OKM: I think human capital is something that not just the government should invest in, but also the private sector. What do I mean by this? So for example, in terms of education policies at different levels, I think we are moving towards an area and age of greater digitalization. So what this means is that even at an early age, and definitely just before you decide whether you want to further your studies after SPM for example, we should have at least picked up some level of quantitative skill, because that is something to do with the big data revolution happening around the world.
At the same time, I think it’ll be good if if we could give access to as many children and students as possible some exposure to things like programming, because even when you want to use your phone, sometimes there’s elements of trying to understand very basic programming so at least you know how to configure apps and things like that. So I think that’s part and parcel of where the world is heading as well. When you talk about the fourth industrial revolution, what is happening now is that you have more connectivity, not just between people but also between machines. So your fridge should be able to talk to your phone, you should be able to turn on your air-conditioner with your phone while you’re driving in your car so that the temperature in your house can be reduced just before you arrive back home. Of course those who are more environmentally-concerned may not want to do that, but I’m just giving a scenario whereby we are in a much more digitally-connected place.
So this definitely affects the way we work. We are able to work from home, at least some of us who are fortunate enough to, because of the digital revolution that has taken place and continues to take place. We are able to have this Zoom call, something that would not have been very popular before the pandemic in 2020. Now, this is part and parcel of the new interaction and interactive landscape.
So in summary, all these tools associated with the digital new age and the digital economy needs to be taught, developed and enhanced, it’s a lifelong learning experience. Even now I’m trying to learn new excel functions, new ways of programming and new ways of understanding and analysing data, so this is something all of us have to do.
RUBY: To quote the New Strait Times, brain drain has been increasing at an average rate of six per cent every year, with an estimate of two million Malaysians living and working abroad. The economic costs of this phenomenon to our country fall in the billions in terms of lost GDP. Could you provide us with some insight on the reasons behind the increasing brain drain observed in Malaysia and what our government is doing to address this?
DR OKM: Okay so I probably have a slightly different view of this brain drain challenge compared to many of my colleagues and many others. Firstly, I don’t necessarily think it’s a disadvantage to the country, because if you think about it, Malaysia is a country of immigrants. There are very few native people apart from the orang asli. For us, the ethnic Chinese in Malaysia for example, our parents came from China, that was part and parcel of the brain drain that happened in different junctures of history in China. It was not so much because of brain drain in the sense of people going out to study and not wanting to come back to their home country in the case of China, but it was more because of push factors, the economic situation during that time was very fragile. There were a lot of political uprisings in China during the last two centuries.
So I think moving to the situation in Malaysia now, we should look at the fact that there are two million or more Malaysians working abroad as a potential asset base that we can tap on. In the sense that, let’s say if we want to do business in any part of the world, who better to do business with than our Malaysians or former Malaysians who are living and working abroad in places all over the world, whether it’s Australia, Singapore, U.S., UK. Some of these are more traditional places but you’d be surprised, you may find Malaysians in South America, in different parts of Africa, in Central Asia. We should look at this as part and parcel of a wider Malaysian overseas network that we can use and leverage on in order to grow the Malaysian footprint.
That being said, you are right in saying that if let’s say, we don’t have the kind of necessary infrastructure and ecosystem to retain many of the good talent that we have, it is a waste in the sense that it is a wasted opportunity whereby, for example, we could have done more cutting edge research in different scientific fields in Malaysia if we had retained our scientist and prepared a proper ecosystem. But I do want to say that sometimes, a country’s economic development may not be as fast as we would like it to be, and that is why some of these people who have chosen to stay overseas are actually better served overseas because they have better opportunities to gain exposure and to do better research to come up with better academic and scientific output.
So let’s say we can look at it from a different point of view, to say that yes, the conditions in the past may not have been right for you to contribute in Malaysia, but now moving forward if let’s say we can find the right ecosystem, you may be able to play a part to contribute. You may not necessarily move back to Malaysia. Some people may. So you know, I talked about the FDI inflows just now coming in from places like the U.S, China, Europe. Many of these companies, when they want to build or grow their businesses and their footprint in Malaysia, they will tap on the Malaysians that are working in these companies in places like San Francisco, London, New York and Australia for example. And then, that’s when we bring them back. But if let’s say they want to contribute in terms of having collaborations with Malaysian universities, having collaborations with the Malaysian government, having collaborations with other private institutions or other private sector companies in Malaysia, then I think that’s something that is a value-added for all sides.
So think of it in a different way. Don’t think of brain drain as something that is purely on the negative. Look at it from the perspective that it presents certain opportunities, but the challenge is, how does the government find the right kind of policies to tap on this Malaysian talent overseas.
RUBY: I can see the positives and I can see where you’re coming from in terms of how our government and our private sector in general can engage with Malaysians overseas and do business with them.
However, because brain drain is so normalised in our culture, in the sense where many Malaysians, especially the younger generation, feel like when they reach a college or university-level, they want to study overseas, stay overseas and earn foreign income because many foreign countries have a higher currency rate compared to us. I feel like it does limit our economic progress a lot, because our talented people leave.
DR OKM: Yes, so you need to deal with the issue in a more-focused manner. You’re right in saying that if let’s say, all our best talent goes overseas to study, then the chances of them staying abroad may be higher which would be a loss of talent to Malaysia. So how do we want to try and address this?
One example would be that the government might want to consider its JPA scholarship policy in the past, whereby they just send scholars overseas, they don’t really expect them to come back to Malaysia to work. If let’s say that JPA scholarships can be channelled to local universities, whether it’s public or private, then you are able to channel many of these good talents to study in Malaysia. Of course, the challenge is whether our local public and private institutions can give them the same kind of exposure and intellectual and academic training for them to thrive. I think this is something that we continue to work on. We see some progress in some of the public universities, especially the research universities. We see some of the private universities, such as the university that you’re in, Taylor’s, Sunway, and a few others, that are slowly getting the kind of international recognition as a result of their work in improving their own quality.
So I think there is some progress there, but at the same time, you look at a country like Singapore. I mean I don’t like to compare Malaysia and Singapore all the time because it’s a different kind of socioeconomic context over there, but they do provide a lot of scholarships for their scholars to go abroad, but of course they bond them and they expect them to come back to Singapore to work. Initially for the government but then later some of them will go to the private sector. At the same time, they are also putting a lot of resources into improving their public universities, NUS, NTU, they are now in a stage whereby there’s world recognition for their excellence. So we do have some ways to catch up, I think that’s just one area of education policy that I’ve spoken about. I think there are a lot more areas where we can address the issue of this brain connectivity or brain drain in a more holistic manner.
RUBY: Like we’ve discussed, one of the main reasons why Malaysians leave the country is to search for better job opportunities with better pay and benefits. My question is, what is the government doing to ensure better job opportunities and higher real wages for Malaysians in the future? Do you think what the government is currently doing is enough to tackle this problem?
DR OKM: Okay, I think when we try to look at this issue, we need to have a more holistic perspective of this. Many of your readers will be looking at this brain drain issue from the perspective of people with degrees, people who are quite highly qualified, having at least a Bachelors’ if not a Masters degree, looking for jobs that are very mobile across borders at the executive or professional level.
At the same time, one must not forget that many Malaysians also leave the country to search for better-paying jobs at the lower end as well. This will be people who are doing manual jobs, people who serve in restaurants, cooks, people who do more manual-labour kind of work. Many of them are actually in Singapore, some of them have gone to Australia to seek better pay and maybe better living conditions and prospects for even their children.
So when we want to address this we need to deal with it holistically, at the top, in terms of those higher paying jobs, we need to enhance the quality of our Malaysian companies, whether it is the government-linked companies or the private sector companies, so that they can elevate themselves and be genuinely world-class companies so they can pay world-class wages. This would mean that many of our companies would need to have more regional exposure to grow beyond Malaysian borders. At the same time, we also need to attract more multinationals to come to Malaysia so they can provide the kind of better-paying jobs and exposure that Malaysians may be seeking overseas. Let’s say if these companies come to Malaysia, then they are able to bring these jobs to Malaysia.
And then at the lower end, I think there’s no running away from it. We need to raise the level of wages at the lower end as well, at the B40 level. I think raising the minimum wage is one good way of looking at it, but there could be other ways as well. So for example if you’re a factory worker, if let’s say your factory boss or owner wants to increase the level of automation, wants to bring in more robots and machines, you should welcome it, because you are able to move away from the more manual type of work, and then you’re suddenly a machine operator instead of just putting in the screws into something that the company is building. So we need to have this small increase in productivity, at the lower level, automation, robotics, digitalization, and then at the same time, we also need to enhance the skills of those at the bottom as well, so that they can be more productive and more value-added. It’s not easy, but I’ve seen it done in many companies, and I think we need both the government as well as the private sector to work together to achieve this goal.
RUBY: Last question, before the interview ends, is there anything you want to share with our readers?
DR OKM: A couple of things, I think the first thing that I want to share is that there is hope, and I do feel hopeful and excited about the future of Malaysia. I think there are a lot of opportunities here in Malaysia in different sectors of the economy, and I think all of you who are reading can play a role, either directly or indirectly, making Malaysia a better place, and a more economically competitive and vibrant place. So that’s something I want to alert you guys about, don’t lose hope despite what you read and hear about the political situation in this country, and also what you hear and read about politicians, I think there are many good people in this country who want to do the right thing.
Secondly, I want to reiterate what I said just now. You guys are at a very young stage of your life, with the world at your fingertips, literally, through the internet and other social media platforms and what not. So be intellectually curious, find out more about the world that you live in, find out more about what’s happening in areas that you may not necessarily be so familiar with, and this necessitates for you to go out of your comfort zone. This may be going out of your intellectual comfort zone, exploring subjects such as history or maths or science that you may not have a natural inclination towards, or it may entail you going out of your physical comfort zone, so going to low-cost houses, low-cost flats, going to places where you don’t usually go, but you go there with some sort of idea of wanting to perhaps help the communities in those places. So the intellectual curiosity part is very important.
The third thing that I really want to emphasise is that try to look for opportunities where you can add value, where it is not just looking for internships or looking for jobs you can further your own career, but look for opportunities where you can enhance your own skills and your own knowledge, and then at the same time, be able to provide value towards others and also the different ecosystems that you operate in, whether it’s the Model United Nations, whether it’s any clubs you’re apart of, it’s not just about you making yourself prominent as a leader or as a community member, but really contributing to that larger space. Once you make those value-added contributions, people around you will be able to see that you’re an asset, to not just yourself but also to others, and then this is when I think we’ll be able to do much more as a group rather than just as individuals. So look for value-added opportunities to contribute, that will be my last thing.
[Transcribed and written by: Ruby Seet. Edited by: Miza Alisya.]